particles and connections (General)

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 01:26 (107 days ago) @ dhw


dhwp: I hasten to point out that I am only trying to understand David’s arguments. He doubts that God is “inside” inanimate objects and believes he controls them – which can only mean that he is outside them. You have quite rightly pointed out that if David’s God was the first cause, he must have made ALL THAT IS out of himself, in which case ALL THAT IS is part of God. David agrees:
DAVID: I agree with you. God is everything in your sense, but He is also consciousness and is closely related to everything conscious. I agree He is not a person in the human sense. All that IS is God's creation and a part of Him.

I don’t think any of us seriously believe that God is a person – though if he is consciousness, his non-humanity certainly does not automatically mean that he is not and never was conscious of things that humans are conscious of, including attributes such as love, compassion, boredom, self-interest etc. “Closely related” is an odd phrase which could do with a bit more elaboration.

God is conscious of everything we are conscious of and much more. Of course conscious beings are more related than conscious beings and unconscious objects.


David, you identify yourself as a panentheist, the essence of which is that God is “within and without” ALL THAT IS. That is the concept I have been questioning in these exchanges. Your reply to me is:
DAVID: I would think He operates inside the universe adjusting its mechanics at a quantum level, which is where I think He is. I firmly believe He is hidden inside the quantum level of reality.

dhw: This, I must confess, leaves me floundering. If God is a universal consciousness, then either he is present at all levels of reality or he’s not. If he’s not, then how can he be within and without All THAT IS (which you say is a part of him)?

The universe has two or perhaps more levels of reality. The quantum level contains God
from which He interacts with the other layers and controls them. He created them from Himself.


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