By FRANS de WAAL: refuted (Introduction)

by David Turell , Tuesday, November 15, 2016, 20:20 (2716 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Of course learning to use our huge ability with our new consciousness took time after it appeared in the first H. sapiens 200,000 years ago. But our current culture and ability was ordained back then. You have talked around that gap in evolution.

dhw: What do you mean by “ordained”? Are you now saying that as well as preprogramming humans, God also preprogrammed our culture? The gap in evolution is the leap to human levels of consciousness, from which our culture (including language) evolved “brick by brick”. Nobody knows what caused the leap, but I have acknowledged the possibility of your God dabbling. That is not talking round the gap – it is an acknowledgement that the gap has not been explained.

I should have said pre-ordained, just as your statement does.

DAVID: I've noted previously my drive to complexity includes improvement. I am not espousing complexity for the sake of unreasonable useless complexity.

dhw: Good. If complexity had a purpose, then I suggest that purpose was improvement. What other purposes do you “include”?

Creating humans, the most complex anatomically and mentally.

DAVID: Then tell me why humans appeared for no reason, against all odds.

dhw: I have done so: for the same reason as every other multicellular organism appeared against all reason, against all odds - the drive for improvement. But as an agnostic, I do not discount a divine dabble. I simply do not believe that your God designed the weaverbird’s nest in order to keep life going for the sake of humans.

And I have no idea how the weaverbird nest was invented, but since I accept God, I have an answer.

Xxxx

David’s comment under "Ape gestures": Yes, why language? The apes have never changed and we grew a great brain and the proper anatomy which could handle language. That reduced the need for trying to understand gestures, which are good only for immediate needs. We are different, not in degree but in kind. We can discuss anything, any concept.

dhw: The answer is contained in the text you have quoted: “At some point, it became necessary for our human ancestors to communicate about more than these immediate goals, and therein lies the mystery of language evolution.” The mystery is the enhanced consciousness, which has led to every other advancement, including language.

You can't be implying that the stress of needing language created the anatomy for speech and the giant brain? Other primates weren't that stressed.