Sheldrake's Morphogenic Field - Innovation (Evolution)

by dhw, Tuesday, September 27, 2016, 14:35 (423 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: According to you, conscious pure energy was the first cause, i.e. ALL THAT WAS was pure energy. So did God spend past eternity saying to himself, “I am pure energy”? He must have been bored silly.
DAVID: According to your view, first there was nothing, then God appeared and finally decided to make this universe after eons of boredom . Try this: God has always existed and has made other universes before this one, never bored.

Where on earth do you get the idea that my view is first there was nothing? You even go on to quote my alternative to your God:
dhw: If we posit the idea of energy and matter as the eternal first cause, at least we have something for consciousness to be conscious of. But we also have the possibility that consciousness evolved from the interplay between energy and matter, as opposed to consciousness preceding matter.

Those are the alternatives I am offering: energy and matter as the eternal first cause, either eternally conscious or with consciousness evolving. If conscious, yes indeed, I have repeatedly suggested that he would have made other universes, but if not conscious, you also have the same possibility of an infinite number of universes, thereby increasing the chances of one of them eventually producing life, and life producing consciousness. The second scenario does not need God. I find neither scenario convincing, and so I remain agnostic.

DAVID: Yes, energy and matter are interchangeable, but from a background of not understanding the consciousness we experience, you want to suggest free-floating consciousness with no thought to occupy it as a reasonable proposal? When I am self-aware I use thought to experience myself. Don't you? My consciousness is a constant stream of thought. That is why it requires a brain as a receiver. Only God does not require a brain since He is not biological.

It is you who are suggesting free-floating consciousness, in the form of pure energy, but in relation to humans once more you are ignoring your own belief, based largely on NDEs, that your own conscious identity with all your memories, thoughts, emotions etc. will survive the death of your brain. However, what memories, thoughts, emotions etc. would you have had without your material life? What life would pure energy have had without matter?

dhw: If consciousness evolved in individual pieces of matter (no more and no less improbable than its always having been there in the form of one pure energy librarian without any books), the library could have built itself up through the multiplication of consciousnesses.
DAVID: Only living brains can receive consciousness. Consciousness appears with life.

Precisely. That is the alternative to your eternal pure energy: that consciousness/consciousnesses appeared with life after an eternity of energy/matter transforming itself.


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