EVOLUTION AND PURPOSE (Evolution)

by David Turell , Friday, December 04, 2015, 00:31 (3060 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: OK. We agree. Now, do organisms arrive at this ability on their own through evolution. I believe it was implanted.
> 
> dhw: The ability is the autonomous inventive intelligence, and I have always accepted the possibility that God “implanted” it. Your argument (with nebulous modifications, as below) has always been that organisms do not have the ability at all: either God has to preprogramme the innovations, or he has to dabble.-You seem to forget that we have discussed an inventive mechanism many times in the past.-> 
> dhw: We have argued over and over again about the meaning of “guidelines”. I am trying to find out what degree of individual inventiveness you will accept, if any at all. We both accept natural and environmental limitations, and you say your God establishes the patterns (e.g. the prototype appendages). So is it possible in your estimation, without evasion, that God left the horse with the freedom to develop its own unidactyl hoof, and the weaverbird to design its own nest?-The nest and the hoof are not equivalent. The hoof is an onboard modification of an existing body form. I can see epigenetics playing a role here. The nest on the other hand requires intricate design of an object. I think that needs intelligent planning. If God guides evolution as I propose, I don't know why I have to define how much guidance for you. I've said I don't know, but to get humans as the goal, there has to be guidance. We humans are not required by environmental pressures. Our development is well beyond necessity.
 
> DAVID: Let the goading continue! I am not blinkered. I simply don't see things as you do. You are still insisting that evolution follow your logic.-> dhw:... whereas you have a fixed belief. .... I see the higgledy-piggledy bush, which you struggle to explain, and I ask how this fits in with the “arrow of purpose” you think you can see, and I suggest that the lack of neatness might mean God did not have your “arrow of purpose”. And so I look for other possible explanations.-I don't see a lack of neatness. I've explained to you the balance of nature, to fit the issue of food supply. Someone eats the platypus, etc. I'm sure God knew what he was doing, but in your position I can understand your doubts.