Free Will, Consciousness, Identity (Identity)

by romansh , Saturday, July 28, 2012, 20:32 (4282 days ago) @ dhw

As I said, this discussion is constantly running into problems of definition. There are umpteen definitions of both terms, but this is what I understand by them. Determinism: the philosophical doctrine that all events are fully determined by preceding events and states of affairs. Indeterminism: the philosophical doctrine that not all events are fully determined by preceding events and states of affairs.
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Fine - but you continue ignore the consequences of both determinism and indeterminism (at least it seems that way to me). Neither grant us the ability to have free will. How does either give us the ability to have free will?-Of course your answer should be don't know - because you don't know where consciousness comes from. Which is fair enough. But there are clues - i don't have memories of being conscious before I accumulated enough biological matter and programming. 
> Irrelevant for whom and to what? The question is relevant for me, and is relevant to my understanding of myself, the nature of consciousness, and ultimately to the existence or non-existence of a god. A non sequitur is a statement that has no relevance to a preceding statement. Same problem: to what is the discussion on free will irrelevant?
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To me, and I would argue to you if you looked at the problem the way I do.-In one sense I would agree the free will discussion is relevant. If free will is false then much of our perception is built on a house cards.-But a belief in free will (an indpendent agency) is similar to a belief in a god.
> Why is this a daft argument? You have always disagreed with my definition of free will as "an entity's conscious ability to control its decision-making process within given constraints". Your main reason for disagreeing was "because it includes consciousness as prerequisite" (11 October 2011 at 20.13). My argument is that the will only comes into play when a decision has to be made consciously, as per this dictionary definition: "the faculty of conscious and deliberate choice of action" (Collins). In the context of "free" will, this is the only definition of "will" that I consider relevant. (The definition does not, of course, mean that the will IS "free" in whatever sense.) You may trivialize this with the ice cream choice, but that involves the same conscious, deliberate process of thought as the decision to commit or not to commit adultery/theft/murder. We are confronted with a choice, we consciously weigh up the options, and then we decide. Your own definition of free will was: "the ability to act on or make choices independently of the environment or of the universe". Since the universe comprises everything that exists, you define free will out of the possibility of existence. See the next set of comments.
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If we don't have free will (whether conscious or unconscious)then our consciousness is an illusion (not what it seems). This is why I don't accept including consciousness in any definition.-I can't show you that I am conscious, and you cannot show me that a brick is not conscious. These are assumptions we make.-Defenders of free ice cream choice -> For me that is precisely what it is about. For you, it seems to be about nothing (irrelevant), because you do not believe free will exists. Your definition is determinist. Of course, you have every right to believe what you believe, and to adhere to your definition. The point I made in my previous post was that this discussion IS all about definitions, and I do not accept yours, so we are discussing different things.
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After living fifty odd years of so called consciousness and believing in free will thoroughly, I thought about free will. Once I thought about it made no sense to me. That is why I don't believe in the concept dhw.-Indeterminism does not give us free will either - less so I would argue. (I find comforting my actions are in some way a result of cause). 
> >ROMANSH: What is your will a consequence of? 
> I have no idea, because I have no idea what my consciousness is a consequence of, and my will is one manifestation of my consciousness.
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But is it a consequence of something? Or is it some independently intrinsic entity?